Waterer Design Problem-Seeking Scientist :)

irsmun · Jun 19, 2022

So it was time to move on from filling the water pan daily so I decided to make a gravity feed waterer. I had just completed a small version for inside the coop using a coleman water thermos turned upside down. It worked perfectly. I think I understand the concept fairly well. You have an air tight reservoir with a hole at the bottom that sets the depth of the water in the pan. Once the water fills to or slightly above the hole the flow stops because of a vapor lock. It will only flow again once the depth goes below the outlet.

I don't have a pic of my waterer so I drew a simple diagram to reference. I can get a picture if that becomes necessary. I am using items I had on hand. I have a 15 gallon plastic barrel for my reservoir. I screwed in a water valve at the bottom so that I could turn it off when refilling the container. I ran a plastic vinyl hose from that valve into the pan about 1/4 inch below the top edge. Thats the setup.

Now when turning it on it fills the pan...and keeps filling the pan. The flow does not stop. There are no air bubbles inside the tube or the water. I have sealed the valve area with silicone to ensure no leaks. The compression fitting for the vinyl hose is tight and also has teflon tape (just to be certain). There are no leaks around the valve anywhere with a full barrel and leak test. As it flows, the sides of the barrel suck in because of the vacuum. It seems there is negative pressure inside the reservoir. Do I need another hole at the top with the vinyl hose going into the tray as well? Can anyone trouble shoot with me?

Just to be clear, I don't have a pan large enough for this barrel to fit into so I am using my regular 12 inch water pan below it. So the vinyl hose is serving as the outlet.

U_Stormcrow · Jun 19, 2022

irsmun said:
View attachment 3155112
So it was time to move on from filling the water pan daily so I decided to make a gravity feed waterer. I had just completed a small version for inside the coop using a coleman water thermos turned upside down. It worked perfectly. I think I understand the concept fairly well. You have an air tight reservoir with a hole at the bottom that sets the depth of the water in the pan. Once the water fills to or slightly above the hole the flow stops because of a vapor lock. It will only flow again once the depth goes below the outlet.

I don't have a pic of my waterer so I drew a simple diagram to reference. I can get a picture if that becomes necessary. I am using items I had on hand. I have a 15 gallon plastic barrel for my reservoir. I screwed in a water valve at the bottom so that I could turn it off when refilling the container. I ran a plastic vinyl hose from that valve into the pan about 1/4 inch below the top edge. Thats the setup.

Now when turning it on it fills the pan...and keeps filling the pan. The flow does not stop. There are no air bubbles inside the tube or the water. I have sealed the valve area with silicone to ensure no leaks. The compression fitting for the vinyl hose is tight and also has teflon tape (just to be certain). There are no leaks around the valve anywhere with a full barrel and leak test. As it flows, the sides of the barrel suck in because of the vacuum. It seems there is negative pressure inside the reservoir. Do I need another hole at the top with the vinyl hose going into the tray as well? Can anyone trouble shoot with me?

Just to be clear, I don't have a pan large enough for this barrel to fit into so I am using my regular 12 inch water pan below it. So the vinyl hose is serving as the outlet.

Easy. You answered the problem yourself.

Your barrel is creating an inadequate vapor lock (negative pressure space), because its deforming from outside (atmospheric) pressure. The larger the reservior, the more water has to flow out before the negative pressure of the void equals outside pressure and prevents further water from escaping.

Which is why large water caches usually use a float system as the cut off, rather than negative air pressure. You will likely have better luck with a modified toilet tank float system.

gtaus · Monday at 11:07 AM

U_Stormcrow said:
Which is why large water caches usually use a float system as the cut off, rather than negative air pressure. You will likely have better luck with a modified toilet tank float system.

+1. Check out something like these float valves, installed in the pan of water, to automatically shut off the water flow when it reaches your desired water level in the pan.

With a float valve, you don't need an inverted water container and any complicated negative pressure setup. Any sized water storage container that is easy to fill would work fine.

irsmun · Monday at 12:45 PM

gtaus said:
+1. Check out something like these float valves, installed in the pan of water, to automatically shut off the water flow when it reaches your desired water level in the pan.

I have looked at those but I was not able to determine if they work with a gravity feed system. There won't be much water pressure. I don't have water at my coop.

raingarden · Monday at 12:47 PM

The beauty of the float valve is that the reservoir container can have an open top so it is easy to refill. It does not have to be filled and then inverted.

The problem with a float valve on anything except a pressurized mains water line is that the valve can get debris lodged in the seal and leak.

U_Stormcrow · Monday at 12:51 PM

irsmun said:
I have looked at those but I was not able to determine if they work with a gravity feed system. There won't be much water pressure. I don't have water at my coop.

I use something similar in two gravity fed systems. They work. One is a stock tank valve, same principle, different float shape. The other is identical design, but slightly smaller, in an automatic dog watering bowl.

gtaus · Monday at 1:58 PM

irsmun said:
I have looked at those [float valves] but I was not able to determine if they work with a gravity feed system. There won't be much water pressure. I don't have water at my coop.

A gravity fed system is all you need. You don't need water pressure for the valves. Any container of water above the level of water desired will work. Very simple design to build.

U_Stormcrow · Monday at 2:21 PM

gtaus said:
A gravity fed system is all you need. You don't need water pressure for the valves. Any container of water above the level of water desired will work. Very simple design to build.

OP is using the term "gravity fed" to mean "non pressurized" - such as when a 55 gal barrel or 275 gal poly tote is supported on a frame and used to feed a small waterng bowl, trough, etc.

Not a system whereby a watering trough is kept full by virtue of equal water elevation in some huge shallow reservior.

My poly totes are just over 3' tall - even sitting on the ground, to use a pure elevation levellign system, my bird's watering bowl would have to float between just over ground level and 3' in the air, depending on how much rain had recently fallen.

Rose Quartz · Monday at 2:34 PM

I use the blue bottles for a human water dispenser, inside of a 5 gallon bucket with holes cut in the bucket for the chickens to put their heads in, and a cup that is tall enough to keep the bottle from touching the floor of the bucket with holes drilled in it.

gtaus · Monday at 2:51 PM

U_Stormcrow said:
OP is using the term "gravity fed" to mean "non pressurized" - such as when a 55 gal barrel or 275 gal poly tote is supported on a frame and used to feed a small waterng bowl, trough, etc.

Not a system whereby a watering trough is kept full by virtue of equal water elevation in some huge shallow reservior.

Given the picture that OP showed us in the first post, I was suggesting that any water container with a vinyl hose running down into a float valve mounted in the watering dish would work. You don't need any pressurized water system and I was not suggesting any kind of equal water elevation system. You set the float valve to shut off the water flow at the desired water level you want in the pan. Hope that better explains what I meant.

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