Anyone have success free ranging with labs?

kcal

Chirping
Apr 6, 2021
36
39
64
NW Illinois
I have two chocolate labs, littermates that are 2.5 years old, and currently 14 one year old chickens with 10 chicks in my garage in a brooder. Chickens share a run with our two goats. I always hoped to be able to free range my chickens, especially in the spring/summer when I’m outside a lot to help monitor things. I have been hesitant about trying because although our labs have never been trained for hunting or been taken hunting, they were bred from a long line of strong hunting labs and definitely have the instinct. They don’t stalk the chickens in their run, but one of them occasionally runs up to the fence because he likes to watch them scatter.
Nice day a couple weeks back, one of my girls managed to get onto the goat hay feeder and flew out of the run. She was just outside the invisible fence we have for the dogs, but they paid absolutely no attention to her. I decided to put the dogs’ e-collars on (I don’t like the shock feature so have only ever used the vibrate or beep) and I did a trial run with a few of my more laid back chickens. One warning beep when the dogs got close and they backed off, interacted in complete harmony and I monitored the entire time. The problem came when the chickens couldn’t figure out how to get back into the run through the open gate. I tried to guide a couple to the opening and one got startled and ran/flapped for a second. That was all it took for my more “prey-driven” dog’s instincts to kick in. He pounced at her, and since they feed on each other’s behavior, his brother quickly followed suit. It happened quick, and the e-collar did nothing to deter them. My husband grabbed both by the scruffs of their necks and they backed off and I got the hen picked up and put into the run. Thankfully they never tried to latch onto her with their mouths, just pinned her with their feet and had their noses in her feathers smelling her, so she was scared but otherwise unharmed. Put the dogs in and rounded up the rest.
I have not (and will not) attempt bringing them out again without some other safe guards in place. We have 35 acres, so I’d love to let them explore and forage, but not if I can’t trust my dogs. I feel training with the dogs would help, but I fear that if left unattended, they may still slip up when that instinct kicks in and if one starts up the second dog will always follow.
Has anyone had any success in getting a dog with strong hunting instincts to live in harmony with their chickens? One thing I thought of was putting a hot wire fence outside of the dogs’ invisible fence boundary, that way the chickens couldn’t get into the yard with the dogs and vice versa, but I don’t know if that’s feasible with the size of our yard or if it would even keep the chickens out long term or if they’d wind up getting over. I’ll keep them contained to the run if necessary, it’s much larger than what’s considered necessary for my soon-to-be 24 chickens, just thought it would be nice if I could make it work.
Couple photos of my trouble makers for fun -
 

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Lady of McCamley

Free Ranging
11 Years
Mar 19, 2011
8,183
6,858
582
NW Oregon
I've trained a lot of labs, having been in the Guide Dog for the Blind program for about 10 years. And those were "soft" labs, not hunting labs, which are a totally different make up

At 2.5 years of age, with no prior desensitizing training, your instincts are right. Those dogs were bred for hunting, and if left to their own initiative, hunting is what they will quickly revert to upon any trigger.

I think you have your answers in your own observations. Even with the e-collar, under the right trigger, they were not restrained. Imagine if you weren't there to stop them. Eventually you will have a dead chicken.

Dogs are always opportunists. It only takes one "positive" reinforcement from a trigger to deepen that pathway. It takes a lot of training to remove that natural reaction to instinct....and many dogs I STILL would not trust alone....it's that one trigger again.

Take for instance my Rat Terrier mix. Excellent ratter. I had to work with him for several weeks when I first got him (as a 1 year old feral rescue, he's now 7) so he wouldn't immediately bolt for the chickens. Took some quick corrections and one timely "bop" on the rear at just the right moment to get him to stop chasing the chickens. Now he can go off leash WITH ME....however just this morning after months and months of good behavior, he bolted at the chickens in the run. (Sigh). Fortunately I've got a good "leave it" command and he stopped...but if I hadn't been there, he would have not stopped if a chicken was running.

Chicks are even worst. They are cute, small, fluffy, and always peeping and running like a squeaky toy. I watch my Rattie very carefully around chicks and at times on leash him.

So I think you know your answer. Keep them on the e-collars, monitor when they are out. Even after weeks of positive reinforcement, it may only take that one trigger with their hunting instincts. You might have months of success...but then I'm pretty positive there will be that incident, which will encourage other incidents.

Just my 2 cents.
LofMc
 
Sep 17, 2021
69
217
101
Phoenix, AZ z9b
I don't have labs but I have had a number of terriers, and I have come to believe that dogs with an innate skill can never really be separated from that urge. Sure there will be individual dogs that come out different, but like you observed.... when a critter runs or flies, they're all over it. :)

Since I've heard that chickens can die by fright or overheating from a startle, I just keep everybody separated and living different lives.
 
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Allsfairinloveandbugs

Free Ranging
Premium Feather Member
Feb 10, 2020
1,453
5,119
531
Far north texas
I agree with all that @Lady of McCamley said, and will add that your situation is made more difficult by the fact you have Two dogs that require training in order to have any hope of becoming chicken-safe. If you were willing to use it, e-collar training using the shock feature would be your best bet. You likely already know that the best field trial candidates, due to their natural intense energy and drive, almost always require some e-collar training to reach their full potential. But it is understandable if you don't want to train your dogs using that method. And even then, competitive hunting dogs are working under their handler's direct commands, which is very different from an lgd that is expected to perform it's job when no human is present.

And you would still need to work with each dog separately. I have seen threads where people use labs as lgds that Are trustworthy around their poultry, but those dogs may had more laid-back temperments to begin with, not the hyper-enthusiasm, drive and energy of a lab from hunting bloodlines.
 

Folly's place

Enabler
10 Years
Sep 13, 2011
25,014
45,053
1,176
southern Michigan
You have a pack, a much different situation than each dog alone. The only way you can make this all work out is with individual training, first on leash, and then with that E-collar, which is just a longer leash.
We have had Chessies, a GSHP, and two Dalmations, all of whom learned that the chickens were off limits. It is so much easier starting with puppies! It's still the same thing; a very good 'leave it!' command, individual training, and lots of time spent.
Our Chessies and that pointer were trained bird dogs, BTW, and had no problems figuring out that a chicken is NOT a duck or pheasant!!!
Meanwhile, protect those chickens, because your dogs will learn to 'love chicken' otherwise.
And with avian influenza out there right now, the birds should be under a roof and not free ranging anyway.
Mary
 

mowin

Crowing
Jun 17, 2018
1,933
4,365
347
Upstate NY
I've got 2 lab mixes and a pure yellow lab. Leah is a lab/greyhound mix, so her prey drive is very strong. At first, she would chase the gals while they were in the run. After a few corrections, and her realizing she couldn't get to them, she paid them no attention. I now let them out to free range and she doesn't care at all. The other two dogs have never cared at all. However, I got a few ginny hens last year. Just there natural nervousness triggered Leah and I had to get rid of them. Leah has actually become a guardian of the chickens. If she hears any commotion, she's checking on them. When I added a roo last summer, she wasn't to keen on him doing the deed, and wanted to stop him, lol.
 

kcal

Chirping
Apr 6, 2021
36
39
64
NW Illinois
Thanks all! I definitely figured free ranging may never be a reality on our property, it’s just always been a hope I had. I suppose my first step will be to get the dogs to leave the chickens alone even along the fence of the run and go from there. I don’t think leaving them unattended with the chickens out will ever happen - I’m not willing to risk the possible slaughter.

Does anyone know there’s a way to allow the chickens to free range outside of the yard area the dogs have access to? My initial thought was hot wire fencing. I know it takes some time for the chickens to learn to stay inside the fence since they’re insulated from most zaps by their feathers, but I’ve read where people have been successful with it and use hot wire fences to keep predators like foxes and coyotes away from free ranging chickens. I don’t know that this would be feasible since I’d essentially have to fence in most of our 35 acre property (less the 2-3 acres the dogs have around our house), I’m just curious if anyone has heard of this in case I can think of way to set it up that would actually work.
 

Lady of McCamley

Free Ranging
11 Years
Mar 19, 2011
8,183
6,858
582
NW Oregon
Thanks all! I definitely figured free ranging may never be a reality on our property, it’s just always been a hope I had. I suppose my first step will be to get the dogs to leave the chickens alone even along the fence of the run and go from there. I don’t think leaving them unattended with the chickens out will ever happen - I’m not willing to risk the possible slaughter.

Does anyone know there’s a way to allow the chickens to free range outside of the yard area the dogs have access to? My initial thought was hot wire fencing. I know it takes some time for the chickens to learn to stay inside the fence since they’re insulated from most zaps by their feathers, but I’ve read where people have been successful with it and use hot wire fences to keep predators like foxes and coyotes away from free ranging chickens. I don’t know that this would be feasible since I’d essentially have to fence in most of our 35 acre property (less the 2-3 acres the dogs have around our house), I’m just curious if anyone has heard of this in case I can think of way to set it up that would actually work.

The hot fencing question may be better answered as a different thread since it doesn't fit into the dog topic.

I think you've found your dog solution. Train to leave on command without charging the fencing while you are present likely is the best you can do with these. I totally agree train one on one first using treats. Treat the moment they ignore the chicken and look at you. Negative reinforce anytime they bolt toward a chicken.

Like I said, my Rattie is a terror to rats around our property, but in my presence will leave the chickens alone...with an occasional charge that ends with my "leave it."

Good luck.
LofMc
 

mowin

Crowing
Jun 17, 2018
1,933
4,365
347
Upstate NY
Thanks all! I definitely figured free ranging may never be a reality on our property, it’s just always been a hope I had. I suppose my first step will be to get the dogs to leave the chickens alone even along the fence of the run and go from there. I don’t think leaving them unattended with the chickens out will ever happen - I’m not willing to risk the possible slaughter.

Does anyone know there’s a way to allow the chickens to free range outside of the yard area the dogs have access to? My initial thought was hot wire fencing. I know it takes some time for the chickens to learn to stay inside the fence since they’re insulated from most zaps by their feathers, but I’ve read where people have been successful with it and use hot wire fences to keep predators like foxes and coyotes away from free ranging chickens. I don’t know that this would be feasible since I’d essentially have to fence in most of our 35 acre property (less the 2-3 acres the dogs have around our house), I’m just curious if anyone has heard of this in case I can think of way to set it up that would actually work.
Don't give up hope. I didn't think it would be possible either. My coops are in the 1.5 acre fenced in backyard. Yard is mainly for the dogs. Leah doesn't bother the birds anymore. I have no worries leaving her and the other two out there with the chickens. As mentioned, she has become a protector of the flock.

Not saying every dog will learn. Hopefully you'll be one of the success stories.
 

Folly's place

Enabler
10 Years
Sep 13, 2011
25,014
45,053
1,176
southern Michigan
Plan on taking time, as in months, at least!
Here we have about 1/2 acre fenced for the dogs, out the back door of the house. Serious fencing, after one of our adult rescues ignored the Invisible fence if chickens were available. He was the eighth dog we had on the IF system, and our first failure. We added 4' horse fencing, with electric tape above, and the IF about 3' inside the physical fence. Worked great, until a couple of years ago, when the 'mother board' failed, and a newer rescue dog dug under and killed MANY chickens! The IF was redone, and all is well since.
Our birds usually can range anywhere except inside the back yard fencing, although there are occasional losses to other predators.
This spring everyone is inside because of the avian influenza.
My chickens went right through two strands of hot wire last summer to get into the vegetable garden...
Electrified poultry netting works well, although we don't have a place to set it up effectively here. That might work to keep your birds and dogs apart.
Mary
 

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