Debate on food, free range and egg quality...

3KillerBs

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I think the difference between 100 and 144 is significant.

It is irrelevant to the point I was making -- that my worst layer today was, nonetheless, performing within the target range for flock improvement a century ago. This despite the fact that she was a Brahma, a breed noted for mediocre if not actually poor laying, and that the target flocks were Leghorns, the #1 egg producers of both that era and this era.

interesting point. Do you keep records? Do you know how many each of your hens lay, and for how long they lay and how long they cease? And how old they each are?

I do not keep formal records. But for the first year I had only 5 hens and thus had no problem knowing who was laying and how often.

My Brahma never did better than 4 eggs a week. My 2 Australorps were 6 days out of 7 or 13 out of 14. My SLW was 5-6 per week but was the first to stop to molt. My California White was at least 28 days out of 30 -- having missed no more than 8-10 days in her entire first year of laying and laying a full year before she molted. In her second year I'm still getting 5 white eggs a week (she's my only white layer).

I have to work and thus cannot do a proper productivity study with trap nests and a spreadsheet.

Note: I refer to the Brahma in past tense because I sold her last night -- with full disclosure of her age and egg-laying performance -- to a man who wanted a lawn ornament flock. She's very beautiful and will do well in her new role.
 

U_Stormcrow

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I'm not knocking feedipedia; I think it's a very good resource, and the sources are great if a bit dated in many cases (they are revising lots of pages). But there are other good sources of nutritional profiles for food, and feed, e.g. https://fdc.nal.usda.gov/ https://www.myfooddata.com/ (same data as above, but easier to use)
https://quadram.ac.uk/UKfoodcomposition/login-register/
https://www.feedtables.com/
Last comment, I'm stepping off. It's raining again, I've lost satellite internet again, and power three times in the last 20 minutes.

I've used USDA before, either because I'm responding to someone using it, or because it has a common data set of ingredients not found on Wikipedia. I have three complaints.

Usda sample sets are often smaller, particularly for the more common ingredients, and frequently include either calculated or "common" values between similar ingredients. Two, it's almost all "food grade", which sometime means enriched ingredients, and sometime captures ingredients of higher nutritional value than what is used for animal feeds, and third (which is minor, but significant to me), the way it's database loads, it's very data intensive. When ones internet is a data limited 1-2 bar cell phone connection, it's slow and wasteful of my connection. Oh, and it doesn't offer sources.

I'll look at your UK source, I've not poked around.

I know I've looked at feedtables in the past, but have no specific memory, so let's pretend I haven't. I'll look again.
 

Florida Bullfrog

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@
In a separate post, I'm going to hit you up on your system for this. I-ve tried barrel composting for bsfl - failed. And the dead carcass maggot drop from a goat I took (would you believe it dessicated? Even the skull produced few maggots), and as I've already posted, my soil doesn't do earthworms.

Would be nice to have a small stable insect protein source for when the crickets and grasshoppers aren't abundant. Our climates should be relatively close.
Weather is about to get bad here. If weather permits I’ll take pics of my setup this evening and show step by step how I lure them in and maintain them. Its easy, something I learned in childhood.
 

raingarden

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This has been an interesting discussion from the beginning. But, criminy, nine new pages in as many hours! What's going on over there? There must be a solar flare or something.

I will only add the obvious.... Any piece of ground or any backyard can provide a nutritionally complete diet. The only difference is the quantity. My yard may be able to support one chicken on five thousand square feet. Your yard may require only one thousand or as much as ten thousand square feet to support that same chicken.

The big trick is to understand what the lmiting factor is. Is it crude protein, an obscure micronutrient, or what? If you know what the limiting factors are, then you can supplement or enhance the diet to overcome those limitations. In doing so, you make better use of the overall resources at hand and do it with minimal cost.

Of course, teasing out and understanding what the limiting factors are is a lifetime of work.
 

NatJ

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My DH knows a farmer who grows specifically for the animal feed market. I've only met him once and don't know if there are extra hoops to jump for crops intended for human consumption or not.

One definite difference: the permitted rate of aflatoxins.

https://www.ers.usda.gov/webdocs/publications/41603/15640_aer828h_1_.pdf?v=0
This .pdf has a table on the 5th page, of what levels are permitted in certain products according to how it will be used. Corn can be used for human food at one rate (20 parts per billion), but for animals at a range of higher rates (up to 300 parts per billion for finishing beef cattle.)

The farmer you know may be growing specifically for animal food, but some animal food is made from crops orginally intended for human food but then repurposed after they fail aflatoxin testing. I'm pretty sure there are other points that matter too; this is just the one where I remembered the right term to easily look it up.
 

Perris

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we may as well all stop pretending we can intelligently make any comparisons at all. Shrug our shoulders, embrace ignorance, and go home - the perfect being made the enemy of the good.
I don't think the only options are all or nothing. I certainly don't embrace ignorance, and I have little time for those who do.

I have found it useful to think about quantities in terms of 'enough', 'too little' or 'too much', using 'about' and e.g. body parts for size guides rather than the false precision of grams and percents. Lab studies are useful, and data in quantity can be very informative - I was a huge fan of Rausing, RIP - but it's only one info stream. There are many others. There is a great deal of collective, combined wisdom, i.e. distilled experience, in old agricultural and poultry manuals, including, or perhaps especially, those written before people started counting the handful of particularly obvious and easy to quantify variables, like number of eggs laid or cheapest feedstuff, and ignoring the rest, like resilience to stress and disease, foraging ability, predator awareness, natural lifespan etc.. There's also a lot of what we now consider nonsense of course. That's why we need to think about what we read, and not just parrot it with as little comprehension as a parrot has of what's it's repeating.
 

Perris

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it's grown specifically for animal feed.
"Feed wheat is often surplus to human requirements or low-quality wheat unsuitable for human consumption (low test weight or damaged wheat), but wheat is also grown specifically for feed purposes (Blair, 2008; Lalman et al., 2011). " https://www.feedipedia.org/node/223 'Surplus to human requirements' in the sense that market forces make it saleable as animal feed. Hungry people would be very happy to eat it if they could afford it.
 

3KillerBs

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"Feed wheat is often surplus to human requirements or low-quality wheat unsuitable for human consumption (low test weight or damaged wheat), but wheat is also grown specifically for feed purposes (Blair, 2008; Lalman et al., 2011). " https://www.feedipedia.org/node/223 'Surplus to human requirements' in the sense that market forces make it saleable as animal feed. Hungry people would be very happy to eat it if they could afford it.

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

I didn't buy the "children starving in Africa" thing when I was a kid and even less so now.

Here, today, in the US, soybeans and field corn are indeed grown specifically as animal feed.
 

Krugerrand

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There is a great deal of collective, combined wisdom, i.e. distilled experience, in old agricultural and poultry manuals, including, or perhaps especially, those written before people started counting the handful of particularly obvious and easy to quantify variables, like number of eggs laid or cheapest feedstuff, and ignoring the rest, like resilience to stress and disease, foraging ability, predator awareness, natural lifespan etc.. There's also a lot of what we now consider nonsense of course. That's why we need to think about what we read, and not just parrot it with as little comprehension as a parrot has of what's it's repeating.

One thing to add ... you folks doing breeding projects and maintaining your own 'barnyard mixes' do so much to further the cause of raising chickens. Granted, as this thread has made clear, there are so many different things people want to get out of their chicken experience. In some cases, chicks from Tractor Supply or a big-time hatchery fit the bill. But, it's the local mixes that, over time, can really become the perfect fit for a location or a desired 'chicken use.' It reminds me of getting great heirloom beans from a local gardener who has been carefully savings seeds year after year.

I wish I could contribute in that way, but alas that's not feasible for me. My hope is when i buy my next pullets, they will be from somebody making their own barnyard mix nearby. I've seen some options on Craigslist, but I'm not ready to pull the trigger yet. I guess that's a contribution in a small way.
 

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